Learning Japanese - OtakuElite

ok, so get the books check; then what manga would you recommend to read a children's level to understand Japanese?

I should go to Japan and sit down in front of kids while I'm having difficulties reading a kid's book. That sounds great. I'm not sure what Manga to suggest though I'm also learning from Ape now. Sorry.

By... "TheAwsome"

Ebel

Like theawesome, I have picked up a few words or key phrases I know by heart by watching subbed anime. However, this does not at all mean I fully understood the phrase or know how change it for polite or not polite saying.

I did try using rosetta stone in the past for japanese. The problem I faced with it was that it told me certain words associated with pictures but I never fully understood why I'm saying something. Its like this: I know how to make a certain chicken dish very good but when I first made it; it turned out very bad because there was a certain order to go about to prepare the chicken, seasons, and other spices that go along with it. In this sense I understood certain nouns and key phrases of japanese though some of the lessons of rosetta stone but I never grasped how the sentence I produce from my mouth is correct such as the places where the nouns or other words are associative with words. It was very frustrating to try rosetta stone while trying to grasp the difference in sentence structure and trying to understand what kanji or other japanese symbols I was seeing.

Exactly. Totally agree with you.

This is basically what I was trying to explain to WestNyorai...Rosetta Stone throws pictures and words at you and expects you to just memorize the word's association with the picture but explains nothing of sentence structure, how words are formed from two other words, etc. And that annoyed me to no end.

I studied Japanese for a while in college (best semesters ever) and what I loved learning the most from my sensei was what root words were, what the meanings behind certain words were, etc.

I think watching subbed anime is always going to be a good way to learn things like pronunciation, speech patterns, etc. because it's almost like language immersion. But to learn the basics and sentence structure I found the DS game JapaneseCoach really helpful. It was engaging and explained a lot about sentence structure, especially in relation to English. It's of course not a perfect way to learn so you'll have to supplement other learning materials but it's a good place to start, it helps you practice vocabulary as well as writing, it gives you a list of common phrases used by travelers/tourists, and it even has a decent dictionary.

NeNe

Ebel

Like theawesome, I have picked up a few words or key phrases I know by heart by watching subbed anime. However, this does not at all mean I fully understood the phrase or know how change it for polite or not polite saying.

I did try using rosetta stone in the past for japanese. The problem I faced with it was that it told me certain words associated with pictures but I never fully understood why I'm saying something. Its like this: I know how to make a certain chicken dish very good but when I first made it; it turned out very bad because there was a certain order to go about to prepare the chicken, seasons, and other spices that go along with it. In this sense I understood certain nouns and key phrases of japanese though some of the lessons of rosetta stone but I never grasped how the sentence I produce from my mouth is correct such as the places where the nouns or other words are associative with words. It was very frustrating to try rosetta stone while trying to grasp the difference in sentence structure and trying to understand what kanji or other japanese symbols I was seeing.

Exactly. Totally agree with you.

This is basically what I was trying to explain to WestNyorai...Rosetta Stone throws pictures and words at you and expects you to just memorize the word's association with the picture but explains nothing of sentence structure, how words are formed from two other words, etc. And that annoyed me to no end.

I studied Japanese for a while in college (best semesters ever) and what I loved learning the most from my sensei was what root words were, what the meanings behind certain words were, etc.

I think watching subbed anime is always going to be a good way to learn things like pronunciation, speech patterns, etc. because it's almost like language immersion. But to learn the basics and sentence structure I found the DS game JapaneseCoach really helpful. It was engaging and explained a lot about sentence structure, especially in relation to English. It's of course not a perfect way to learn so you'll have to supplement other learning materials but it's a good place to start, it helps you practice vocabulary as well as writing, it gives you a list of common phrases used by travelers/tourists, and it even has a decent dictionary.

I think in order to start off I need to learn the general wording. Like hi, goodbye, how are you. I think learning the simple basics of the structure of Japanese will provide a good first solid step into immersion of the langue. While learning the langue I want to have fun not be a drone repeating words until they are plastered in my head. For that I would just go to Japan's pre-schools.

By... "TheAwsome"

DamDirtyApe

TheAwsome

Wow I usually just learn from watching subbed Anime and pick up on a few words. But what you said is very helpful.

By... "TheAwsome"

It's helpful, but it's entirely built on the foundation that you yourself will go to extra lengths to study it. Learning a language takes years. Especially if you're trying to learn fluent. It really requires a lot of patience as well. It's almost like learning to play an instrument. It sounds awesome at first, but it's unfulfilling for a long time.

You'll learn a few things and a couple songs and feel like you're getting better exceptionally fast. Then you'll hit a wall where you don't improve at all. And that wall lasts months. Then you slowly get better over time and the pace does not increase at all. You'll need to take breaks as well which always slow down the process.

The rosetta stone process is amazing, but it works in the same theory which answer 1.) stated. All these solutions are based on immersing yourself in the Japanese language. If you do not hear it constantly and you do not reply constantly, you will not learn it. Simple as that. Your memory holds so much more information now than it was when you were a child, so you literally have to pound it in.

The end goal is to just surround yourself in the Japanese language.

My friend who is teaching me Korean put if in a very simple way.

Him: "Do you think in Japanese? Or Korean?"

Ape: "No I think in English and reply in those languages."

Him: "I think in those languages when I'm speaking it. So it's fluent. Until you can think in the language you want to speak, all you're doing is translating to yourself."

I agree with your friend but it's honestly difficult to do that when you juggle so many languages in your head lol. I would LOVE to think in all the languages that I have bits and pieces of in my head...and to some extent I do but it's SUPER hard cuz I also have dialects in my head

When I get frustrated I curse in Spanish, when I'm really excited I express it in Japanese, I speak like a New Yorker to friends, I speak proper English at work and formal settings, and I speak in the dialect of my country to family members. And thanks to my bf I'm starting to sound like an Italian when I'm around him XD

I'm on language overload lmao

I think though, that a person has to be very comfortable with a language before they can think in it. Unless you're fully immersed then it can be really difficult to think in a language.

TheAwsome

NeNe

Ebel

Like theawesome, I have picked up a few words or key phrases I know by heart by watching subbed anime. However, this does not at all mean I fully understood the phrase or know how change it for polite or not polite saying.

I did try using rosetta stone in the past for japanese. The problem I faced with it was that it told me certain words associated with pictures but I never fully understood why I'm saying something. Its like this: I know how to make a certain chicken dish very good but when I first made it; it turned out very bad because there was a certain order to go about to prepare the chicken, seasons, and other spices that go along with it. In this sense I understood certain nouns and key phrases of japanese though some of the lessons of rosetta stone but I never grasped how the sentence I produce from my mouth is correct such as the places where the nouns or other words are associative with words. It was very frustrating to try rosetta stone while trying to grasp the difference in sentence structure and trying to understand what kanji or other japanese symbols I was seeing.

Exactly. Totally agree with you.

This is basically what I was trying to explain to WestNyorai...Rosetta Stone throws pictures and words at you and expects you to just memorize the word's association with the picture but explains nothing of sentence structure, how words are formed from two other words, etc. And that annoyed me to no end.

I studied Japanese for a while in college (best semesters ever) and what I loved learning the most from my sensei was what root words were, what the meanings behind certain words were, etc.

I think watching subbed anime is always going to be a good way to learn things like pronunciation, speech patterns, etc. because it's almost like language immersion. But to learn the basics and sentence structure I found the DS game JapaneseCoach really helpful. It was engaging and explained a lot about sentence structure, especially in relation to English. It's of course not a perfect way to learn so you'll have to supplement other learning materials but it's a good place to start, it helps you practice vocabulary as well as writing, it gives you a list of common phrases used by travelers/tourists, and it even has a decent dictionary.

I think in order to start off I need to learn the general wording. Like hi, goodbye, how are you. I think learning the simple basics of the structure of Japanese will provide a good first solid step into immersion of the langue. While learning the langue I want to have fun not be a drone repeating words until they are plastered in my head. For that I would just go to Japan's pre-schools.

By... "TheAwsome"

Yea having fun is key. That's what was so great about my sensei. She taught is in a way that was fun and interesting and even felt very Japanese. If that makes sense lol. She had a way of teaching and doing things that just felt very inherently Japanese and I loved it.

WestNyorai

NeNe keeps telling me how bad Roseta is because it only has you to memorize words and doesn't actually teach you the language.

Now she wants to force teach me Japanese by having me memorize stuff....

You are such a farce! I explained the meaning behind everything I was teaching you to say!

Besides, there will be memorizing in everything you do, that's just how we learn. The difference between strictly memorizing and actually internalizing something is whether or not you can take what you once memorized and apply it to a different situation...that's how you know you've TRULY learned something.

So yes I will force teach you to memorize to an extent, but I'm always going to tell you the reason WHY things are written or said a certain way (at least to the extent of my knowledge lol)

You're just being a lazy bum. If I threw 1s and 0s at you you'd be happy

010110010110010101110011001000000100100100100000011101110110111101110101011
011000110010000101110001000000100010000111010

WestNyorai

010110010110010101110011001000000100100100100000011101110110111101110101011
011000110010000101110001000000100010000111010

I'm going to sneak into your house and smother you in your sleep ^^

DamDirtyApe

TheAwsome

NeNe sounds very persuasive.

By... "TheAwsome"

Monumentally.

Oh? And yet you've never offered to teach ME Japanese...I'm totally jealous

Haha jus kiddin

I have a security system. Good luck!

WestNyorai

I have a security system. Good luck!

Pfff..your puny security system can't keep me out...and since when do you have security? XD

It came with the apartment. lol Don't ask me why. But they still charge you for it if you use it or not.

WestNyorai

It came with the apartment. lol Don't ask me why. But they still charge you for it if you use it or not.

That's damn near robbery!

It's a very good point that you want to have fun with the learning process, or you'll just find it being a sort of chore and that'll slow it down drastically.

Ebel: I'll contact my friend for his list of books then post up shortly.

Thanks Ape, I'll be waiting for that list patiently and eagerly...if that is possible.

UWAHHHH! It logged me out by the time I finished typing, haha...

Ok one more time to go.

***********

For Starters...

So my friend got back to me and just gave me the list of the manga he is currently reading as well as some that he started out with. For starters he went with gyagu anime like 'Yotsuba', and 'Crayon Shin-Chan'. They use very basic Japanese grammar as well as phonetically spelling out all the kanji, if used at all.

E.G.

Yotsuba (As you can tell there's no kanji in this cell. Though I could not find a full page in raw format, it shows how simple it is to read for the most part.)

Next is Crayon Shin-Chan. (You can see a decent usage of kanji, but the spelling is phonetic. Once you have memorized a decent amount of Japanese words, you'll really start to enjoy it.)

Intermediate...

What he read when he moved onto the more intermediate are manga like 'Kerero Gunsou', 'Death Note', K-On', 'Dragon Ball', 'Whistle!' and 'One Piece'. These manga have very proper and easy to follow grammar. The sentences are structured well and they don't use wordplay to mix up their humor. Though the kanji is not always phonetically spelled out, it isn't too difficult to read once you start to get use to seeing it.

E.G.

Kerero Gunsou (Lots of fun to read and not many Japanese culture type jokes. It's just a good slap stick comedy that takes you on an adventure. I would highly recommend this when you're feeling up to it. Keep in mind there is a decent amount of kanji, but it's all phonetically spelled out.)

Death Note (The kanji is kanji heavy, but they still phonetically spell it out. An example would be the kanji at the upper right of the cel, which symbolizes, 'What?' or 'Nani?')

**Continued on next post**

**Continued**

K-On (This has a good amount of kanji as well, though it does not phonetically spell the words out. The structuring beats out any problems with reading though. It's very simple grammar and fun to follow.)

Whistle! (This is very easy to follow if you understand soccer (Proper football). It's main fan base is younger teen boys, so you won't be left too far in the dust. There will be zero word play and all sentences are simple and direct.)

Personal Opinion...

Basically, find an anime that you like that isn't kanji heavy. If the anime has simple grammar in subtitles, you can bet it will have simple grammar in Japanese as well. As Re said above, you need to find something that's enjoyable. Now all of the success from these is heavily based on how much you are able to retain when it comes to the Japanese vocabulary. Just be patient and keep going with it. But of course, have a lot of fun.

I would stay away from gyagu anime, another one he reads, like Nichijou. The word play is very advanced as well as the references. The structure is also difficult, because that is the style of humor it displays. If you are not familiar with Japanese style jokes as well as oyaji gyagus in Japanese, or puns, you will likely not enjoy this type of manga at all.

I would really recommend Yotsuba for it's light hearted humor, adventurous themes and it's simple writing style.

But I'll keep looking up more and see what I can dig up. Hopefully this helps at least a little bit, Ebel! Let me know I can help even more!

So this is my assumption about what you said so far and other stuff I have looked into.

Basics

Book 1 - Nakama 1: Japanese communication, culture, context [not sure if this has any kanji or writing use]
Book 2 - Complete Japanese: The basics (coursebook) [shows mostly romaji]
Book 3 - Genki 1: An integrated course in elementary japanese [has kanji in it and shows it more to get use to it, not sure if this will help though.]
Read Yotsuba and crayon shin-chan
Find a kids anime show I could watch.
Use rosetta stone as well in combination of the japanese books.

Intermediate (1-2 years in)

Read K-on, death note, whistle, & Dragon ball
Probably see if at this point I can read the subtitles to cowboy bebop or watch it in Japanese without having to think about it.
Watch Full metal Alchemist brotherhood in Japanese.

If you have any recommendations on the style of writing for Japanese would be great. So far it might be that nakama or another could prove useful but haven't read into it more or brought it yet.

Then hopefully at the end of my journey I will be able to play tales of vesperia (PS3) japanese version, tales of destiny 2 (PS2), and other games on the vita or psp in the next 2-3 years if I get good on it. Also, hoping to finish some manga that has yet been transleted over to English or never be translated.

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